"Do I tell somebody before a first date that I pee myself?" One patient's surprising journey to drier days.

There's a misconception out there that incontinence is usually something that happens as you get older. Hannah is here to tell us that it's something that can happen at any age. She shares her story about how she developed severe overactive bladder after a surgery in her early 30s, how it nearly derailed her career, and how she finally found relief after she had nearly given up hope.

To learn more about InterStim therapy from Medtronic, visit talkleaks.com.

To learn more about the National Association for Continence, click here, and be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Pinterest.

Music:
Rainbows Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

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Transcript

The following transcript was generated electronically. Please let us know if you see any transcribing errors and we'll get them corrected immediately. 

Bruce Kassover: Welcome to Life Without Leaks, a podcast by the National Association for Continence. NAFC is America's leading advocate for people with bladder and bowel conditions, with resources, connections to doctors, and a welcoming community of patients, physicians, and caregivers, all available at NAFC.org. This podcast is supported by our sponsor partner, Medtronic, maker of InterStim systems for bladder and bowel control. To learn more about InterStim therapy, visit controlleaks.com.

Welcome back to another episode of Life Without Leaks. I'm your host, Bruce Kassover, and joining us today is Hannah, who has a very interesting personal story to share with us. She's also an ambassador for Medtronic, the maker of InterStim therapy. So welcome, Hannah. Thank you for joining us. 

Hannah: Thank you so much for having me.

Bruce Kassover: Yeah, we're excited to hear your story. We love, we always love to speak to people who have personal things to tell. So tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Hannah: Yeah, sure. I am 41. I work in bioinformatics and still going to school that will probably continue forever, and I was diagnosed with overactive bladder at the age of 33.

Bruce Kassover: Now, I'm sure that that was not something you ever imagined you'd have to deal with, and certainly not at the age of 33. 

Hannah: No, definitely not. And that diagnosis came immediately following a radical hysterectomy. So I was really not prepared for any of that. And, you know, having that at such a young age, too, was, it just kind of compounded everything. And so after the hysterectomy, I stayed in the hospital for significantly longer than you should after having that. And that's when the problem became apparent that, yeah, this was overactive bladder. And when I say overactive, I meant that I was going to the bathroom every half hour.

And even though I was going so often, I would also have leaking in between. So it was very much like this very leaky faucet that we really didn't know what to do with. 

Bruce Kassover: Wow. That whole thing sounds like traumatic, really. I mean, you're talking about a major surgery and you have complications that nobody wants to have afterwards.

Hannah: Yes, it was really difficult to navigate that portion of my life. And I was also looking to establish myself in a career and also trying to navigate dating after having the hysterectomy and also being diagnosed with the overactive bladder, and so that was really difficult too, because I'm like, okay, do I tell somebody before a first date that I pee myself? Does that not get me a first date? Do I talk about it during the first date while we're at dinner? Is that okay to discuss? Because I'm sure that it looks really ridiculous if I'm just excusing myself every half hour to go to the bathroom. It probably looks like I'm trying to like escape a date or something like that.

Bruce Kassover: Yeah, I can imagine. 

Hannah: It was all very complicated and frustrating and difficult to try to deal with. 

Bruce Kassover: I'm sure, but I guess it's also like a filter, because if you, once you do spring the news, depending on how they react, you know, if it's somebody that you want to, you know, continue seeing or, you know what, time's up I'll go find somebody else.

Hannah: Right, so it's like, okay, well, does that say something about someone who's not willing to deal with that? Is that, you know, it's not really, you know, a common occurrence for someone in their, you know, their thirties to have this issue anyway, so, you know, what, what am I really expecting from someone who's like 35, like, it's, it's tough, you know, like, I can't, I can't blame someone for not wanting to deal with this with me, but, you know, I was just hoping that someone would recognize that this is not the sum of my parts and that this is just something that I come with, but that it's not my entire, you know, personality. 

Bruce Kassover: Maybe it's a little personal, but have you been successful finding a person or people who are accepting? 

Hannah: Yes. Yes. I'm now happily married for seven years now – no…

Bruce Kassover: Mazel tov!

Hannah: …no, we've been together seven, married for four. It's actually our four-year anniversary is coming up in August, so, yeah.

Bruce Kassover: That's excellent. I'm glad to hear that. But even then, you know, it's sure, I guess, you know, your, your online dating profile, you have to, you know, sort of think about, do I add this as a line for people who do find themselves in this situation? Do you have any recommendations? How should they go about that? 

Hannah: Yeah so for, for me, I was lucky enough to start working in the hospital when I was hospitalized after the hysterectomy with a urologist, but, you know, I know that's not the case for everyone because not everybody is hospitalized after having this diagnosis.

So, you know, I would say that if you are experiencing these types of issues, you know, to seek out a urologist and that it might be difficult to, in finding someone who's a good match for you, you know, in the same way that, you know, you're, you're looking for a good partner who's going to listen to you and understand you as you're going through this.

You need to find a physician like it's, it's almost like dating, you know, you need to find a physician who is willing to also listen to you and work with you rather than talking at you and saying, you know, what would be best for you? So I did start working with a physician in the hospital and then once I was discharged and then I got a new job so then I was also relocating.

So then I had to do this whole dating thing again in finding a good physician who was a good match for me. And that's when we really started to explore treatment options for this and really have frank conversations about what my life looks like or how it could look once we got to a point where we both agreed that something was working.

Bruce Kassover: Before we even talk about treatment options, tell me, what was it like starting a new job having this issue? 

Hannah: So it's been awkward. You know, luckily, we did not mention where I work. So, you know, there were times where I would have accidents at work and I would excuse myself from the middle of a meeting and come back and be wearing completely different clothes because I just soaked through everything and...

Bruce Kassover: you just have to pretend you're a superhero and that you just, you know, just did a quick change. 

Hannah: Yes, exactly. Right. Like the Superman underneath of my, like, button up shirt. Exactly. Right. And you can't recognize me because I'm wearing the glasses, but then once I take them off, like, oh my goodness, totally different person.

Bruce Kassover: That’s true, but it did have to be awkward, I would imagine. I mean, because yeah, you feel like you have to explain yourself or not explain yourself. What's the right answer for that? 

Hannah: So I chose not to explain myself and, you know, at that point I was just like, you know, whatever you want to make up about what is going on with me, like, that's great. And that's on you because, you know, it is really embarrassing and isolating to have to go through this. And it was a new job, so I didn't want to complicate things or make it seem like I was unreliable. And that's not ever the message that I received from my employer, but that's the message that I was telling myself, unfortunately, which is really unfair as well, but that, you know, if I was leading a meeting or doing like an orientation or something like that for like someone who, you know, was new to our department, I would excuse myself from the meeting and say, “Okay, I'll be right back. Like, talk, talk amongst yourselves.” And that's how, you know, I would, I would handle that, but knowing that I just leaked or that like I had a full on accident and things like that. So then, you know, I'm hyper aware of those types of situations and that I would always bring pads with me to work and extra change of clothes, extra undies, like, I had a bag and so I would, you know, just make sure of all of that as well.

And I was commuting by train and the train time was longer than, like what my limit was for the bathroom. So the train ride was never a success either. So then, you know, as soon as I got to the train station, I'm pushing past people to like run to the bathroom to like change a pad and things like that.

So this was all like a weird navigation time for me and, and being a new employee and trying to be a good employee and, and what I thought that looked like while sparing people the details of what I was going through. 

Bruce Kassover: You know, I'm hearing something else underneath also. And tell me if this sounds true or if I just make something up, but what I'm also hearing is that, you know, we walk around with this image of ourselves in our heads, you know, who we picture we are. And, you know, when incontinence happens to somebody and they're a senior, nobody wants to have this issue, but it's not nearly as surprising as when it happens to you and you're a young person.

And, you know, nobody thinks that as a young person, they're going to have this. How did it affect your, your sort of sense of self and your inner life? How did, what sort of an impact did it have that way? 

Hannah: That's an excellent question and also a really great observation. I think it's really hard to just feel good about yourself when you're constantly peeing yourself. And I know that I definitely struggled with self esteem during that time, and I felt like my body was like failing me and that it was embarrassing and I'm supposed to be young and healthy and I'm not. And, you know, that really did take a toll on how I felt about myself. And, you know, it's hard to carry an air of confidence at work as well when something like that happens.

So I was definitely dealing with thoughts of, like, imposter syndrome and things like that too, just because you know, I'm trying to make a good impression and I know, you know, what I'm doing at work and, you know, I feel like I should have a great grasp on things, but that that little part in my mind is like, “Oh, well, you're constantly leaving meetings and how are you, you know, really absorbing all of the information as a new employee when you just need to excuse yourself all the time? And what does that look like to other people?” 

So I felt, I put a lot of pressure on myself and, you know, I felt judgment, but it wasn't from other people. It was like this weird internal thing that I was trying to grapple with and navigate while just trying to hold it together pretty much.

Bruce Kassover: I can imagine that had to be – every day had to be a struggle. 

Hannah: Yes. Every day was totally a struggle and it wasn't just about work either. It was just basing my entire life around where the next bathroom is going to be. And can I enjoy my nephew's birthday when it's at a park? And where's the bathroom at the park? I know that there was a McDonald's that I passed before I got there. So do I need to leave at some point and drive there? But that's probably going to be too late. And I'm already going to have an accident at that point too. 

So, you know, I don't know. And going food shopping and knowing where the bathrooms are there. Okay, when I go to Target, I know that the bathrooms are right there. But if I go to Lowe's, for some reason, the bathrooms are in the bowels of the store by, like, the lumber yard or something like that. So, you know, I had to learn all of these things and everything just became like, very bathroom-centric.

Bruce Kassover: So you had a, you had the radical hysterectomy and you started to notice symptoms appear immediately and you went to see urologist after that. How long did you continue having symptoms that you didn't seem to be able to get under control? 

Hannah: Yes, so we went the medication route initially, and I feel like I tried every medication for overactive bladder that was available in the market. And they would either work for me initially and I would get very excited about it, and then they would fail me after about a month or just never start working at all. And some of them had some pretty nasty side effects as well. Just constant thirst. And I'm like, isn't this counterintuitive to what I'm trying to combat?

Bruce Kassover: Exactly. Making you do the thing you don't want to do. 

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. And also like blurred vision and things like that. And I was like, well, that's not really going to work for me because I need to be like, very sharp at work. And this isn't it. So then after doing the medications, then I did Botox injections in my bladder.

I did that for about a year and a half and it worked. Sometimes it would little, like, work a little bit too well, and I would have issues starting to go to the bathroom, which was pretty much the exact opposite of what I was going through previously, and I know that, you know, being an ambassador and talking to other patients that I do know that some folks have to use a catheter after having the Botox injections in order to just go to the bathroom.

That was not the case for me, but it was still really difficult. So I would find myself just sitting in the bathroom for 10 or 15 minutes, just trying to push on my bladder to get it all out and…

Bruce Kassover: Out of the frying pan into the fire. 

Hannah: Exactly. So, and the problem with Botox too, is that it wears off. So I know that some patients can get eight and nine months of relief with the Botox. But for me, just because of how severe my overactive bladder was, I was getting the injections every like three to four months and taking time off of work to go get the injections. Dealing with the aftermath of that, and then also dealing with urinary retention sometimes with the Botox injections and then developing frequent UTIs because of that.

So it just became this thing that just wasn't sustainable. I, so I went to the doctor, and it was like, you know, I've been doing this for like a year and a half now, and before that it was like a year of medications, and am I just supposed to do Botox injections from like 35 to 85? Like what's, what's really the plan here And that's when she talked to me about the InterStim and the bladder stimulator. 

Bruce Kassover: Yes, now, you weren't familiar with that at all beforehand, were you? 

Hannah: No, I had never heard of it before. And with my age bracket, you know, this is not really something that's like widely discussed. So when I was telling my friends that, you know, I had this overactive bladder issue and with the leaks and everything like that, you know, everyone would be like, “Oh, that's really terrible. But we can't, we can't relate.” 

So in learning about the InterStim at the age of 35, it was like, okay, well, you know, again, I'm just kind of on my own and doing this and yeah, it wasn't until I told a colleague of mine about it that he was like, oh yeah, my dad had that done like 20 years ago. This is like ‘The Thing.’

And I was like, oh, okay. Well, I'd never heard of it before, but, yeah, so the doctor had explained to me the trial period and what that looks like, and then the permanent implant, should I decide to go through with it? And I think that I was just so excited that something was actually going to work that I didn't ask any questions.

So I was like, “Yes, let's do it!” And so I had it done. I had the trial done in a surgery center. And when I woke up from it, I was like, “Oh my goodness, what, what did I agree to?” Because I had a nylon belt around my waist with a battery pack and some wires and they were all taped up and things like that. And then a very nice nurse came to me and she was like, “Oh, by the way, you can't shower the entire time that you have this, you can't get the battery wet.” I was like, “Okay, well, I did not prepare for any of this.” This is my fault because I didn't ask any questions. So now I guess my colleagues just have to deal with me being a little bit smelly this week as I go through this.

So, but I did it. I went through the trial period and we did need to make some adjustments to my stimulation level in order to get things situated to a place where I thought it would match what like a quote-unquote normal person's bathroom schedule would look like. So I was able to make it to like the three and four hour mark without having to go to the bathroom.

And that to me was just amazing because of all that I had been through previously, I didn't think that I would get to that, that part of it. 

Bruce Kassover: Now, this is very cool. For people who are not familiar with the InterStim, what it is, is a little it's about the size of a half dollar, and it has a little wire that is attached, that gets attached to a nerve inside of your body, the sacral nerve, because brain-bladder communication is a real thing and it actually affects how you go to the bathroom.And if you can improve brain-bladder communication through a little bit of electrical stimulation, you find that people with symptoms like overactive bladder see real improvement. 

So you get this as a trial. So they don't actually implant the device that you have. It's sort of on the outside. You can't get it wet. And the coolest thing you just said is that you could like dial in. You have to work with them, but you could dial in exactly how much relief you want, which is like, like science fiction to me.

Hannah: It's pretty amazing. And they give you what looks like a cell phone in order to control the device. It was incredibly easy to use, but you can't make phone calls on it or anything. I think there's only 2 apps on the phone. One is to control the simulation level and the second is locked, like clinician password type of thing.

Bruce Kassover: I think you're probably a little too young, but it sounds like you're sort of like the Six Million Dollar Man or the Bionic Woman, you know, yeah, you just sort of control exactly how much you want. I'm wondering… the stimulation. Could you feel it? I mean, did you feel something? 

Hannah: Yes. So it feels almost like a internal vibration in, like, your bicycle seat area, but it's incredibly discreet, so no one can hear you outside vibrating, so no one really knows that I have this unless I tell them, but it's not the type of vibration that will take you out of your daily routine. It's not intrusive in that regard. 

And it's pretty amazing now, so I've been a patient for about 6 years, and it's amazing what the brain will forget and what it will adapt to, because at this point, I don't feel the vibration at all unless I really concentrate on it. And then, there it is – it's working. So it just works very nicely in the background for you, and you don't need to have that cell phone within range in order for the device to continue to work.

Bruce Kassover: It doesn't pick up like am radio stations from, you know, across the country or anything?

Hannah: No, no. I can't like open my mouth and, like, a John Mayer song comes out. It's not, it's not cool like that. 

Bruce Kassover: I see. But imagine if you could, that would be awesome too. 

Hannah: It would be, it would be a really great party trick. Yeah. I'm a little upset about that. 

Bruce Kassover: Yeah. So now tell me this. You get the implant and you said you had to make some adjustments to it. But how quickly could you tell that, yeah, this is going to be a solution for me? 

Hannah: So for the first like three days, it was working pretty well, but not well enough for me. So I had some relief initially, so it did start working immediately for me, but I wanted more time in between my bathroom breaks.

So that's when I talked to my Medtronic representative and we made, you know, a joint decision to bump up the stimulation level pretty considerably. And then that's when I felt that relief at like the three and a half and four hour mark. So it did work initially for me, but it just wasn't to my standards of what I thought a normal person's schedule would be.

Bruce Kassover: So you get it calibrated the way you want, you have the actual implant put in… do you have to do anything else? Or are you just like, free and clear now. 

Hannah: I am free and clear now. So I went through with the permanent implant and I'm actually on my 2nd battery at this point. The first battery that I had was a 5 year battery because that's where the tech was at that time.

And now I'm on a newer battery. I should be able to get about 10 years of life in this, I think. And, yeah, I'm pretty much good to go. I've also been leak free now for about 6 years as well, so that once I made that initial adjustment during the trial period, I haven't had any leaks since, which is great.

It's wild. It's crazy to me that that happened because I was just so used to pads and waking up all the time overnight and, you know, having car rides not be a success and having work meetings not be a success and things like that. So it's, it's pretty amazing. So now I just have to go to the urologist once a year. And I bring the little phone with me and she puts in her password and tests my battery level and then I get to go on living my life. And it's pretty amazing. 

Bruce Kassover: You know, I imagine that you probably have a happier outlook on things than almost anybody else, because you have something to compare it to that few people really do. I mean, you must have a perspective on things, you know, the ability to appreciate being able to travel, for example, and things like that, that people just don't have. 

Hannah: Yes, traveling by plane is a pleasure now. I can sit in the middle seat and be okay and not have to worry about things. So that's, that's okay too. And yeah, I definitely have the before-and-after perspective and that I know what it was like to go through this, but now I also know what it's like to not have to be that way anymore. And it's night and day how amazing this has been.

Bruce Kassover: Wow, that's really, really, I'm so happy to hear that. And what I, what I really hope is that people take your words heart and, you know, really take active steps to try and find solutions for themselves also, because you're living proof that regardless of your age, regardless of your, you know, your, your physique, your health, anything, you can find yourself encountering these sorts of problems and you could also find yourself overcoming them. So that's, it's, it's really inspiring. I love hearing that. Thank you. 

Hannah: Well, thank you. And you know, this diagnosis definitely does not discriminate and that it can definitely happen to anyone of any age or gender and that there are solutions that can work for you. 

Bruce Kassover: So, now you're an ambassador for Medtronic, so you have sort of a responsibility to evangelize the InterStim solution for people. Do you get the chance to meet a lot of people who are like you? You know, people who are on the younger side, who've maybe gone through similar have a similar background? 

Hannah: Yeah, so I have now talked to about 287 patients as an ambassador. I started this last year and I talked to folks of all ages. And it's really interesting to hear how similar our stories are in that, you know, we're going through this and it's, you know, it's an incredibly embarrassing time and that, you know, we're trying to navigate social situations.

So, you know, obviously everyone's situation is unique, but I think that the feelings behind having something like this are very, very similar and it does seem to impact folks emotionally more. However, I think the younger that they are – I've talked to patients who are 18 and they have been on the phone with their parents while, you know, having the conversation with me and the outlook of, you know, I have my whole life ahead of me, but there's this thing that's blocking me from attending college, or, you know, that's blocking me from establishing good relationships at an age where it's really important. So, different situations, but very similar emotional aspects to it. And, you know, I definitely talked to a lot more women than men as an ambassador, but that, you know, a lot of women who I've talked to, I was lucky in that I received help initially in the hospital for this, but that, you know, I'm talking to women who tell me that they've been dealing with this for 20 years, and now they're finally taking control and seeking out assistance through a doctor. And so, I think that there's an aspect to that we're, you know, as women, we're kind of expected to suffer in silence about things or that folks tend to think that, you know, as we age, this might be something that just happens naturally, but it's definitely not. Like my grandmother, you know, lived well into her 80s and this never happened to her. And so, you know, I think that there's that aspect of it as well that, you know, we're, we're just, you know, expected to kind of deal with things and just buy the pads and you know, just try to navigate life while also dealing with that.

And it's hard. And, you know, I think too, as an ambassador that it makes people feel really good to hear that someone else has gone through this. Like, yep, I suffered in many of the same ways that you did. And, you know, that really, I think, is helpful to people just to let them know that there's someone else out there that has definitely gone through, you know, a very similar experience.

Bruce Kassover: Yeah, that was exactly what I was going to ask, actually, is how do they feel knowing that, oh, there is somebody else out there who's like, I'm not the only one. Cause you talked about how isolating it can be and it's got to be very depressing because of that. 

Hannah: Yeah. So, you know, I let people know that, you know, I've talked to a bunch of other patients and that, you know, we're a strong but silent group of people who have definitely, you know, gone through this same situation as them and I think that that does something to people that, you know, they're, it makes them know that they're not alone in this and that I can empathize with the feelings of isolation and, you know, the self confidence issues that that go along with this but that, you know, there, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, whatever that light looks like for them and that, you know, I hope that they, you know, continue to, to pursue what's going to work.

Bruce Kassover: Yeah, that's why this podcast is really, I think, really important is because, you know, at the time you're talking with people, they're already actively looking at solutions. You know, they've reached a point in their journey where they're just about there, but there are so many people who aren't even close to that.

Like you said, people have been years and years and years. I think, you know, you were talking about how women are sort-of conditioned to just suck it up and, you know, we're just going to, deal with it, and that's, I’m not going to be a complainer. You know what I also think compounds it, and tell me if this also sounds like it's true, is the fact that there are things out there that can help you just get by enough, you know, so that you do have some pads and some other things that you could use that can sort-of help put a band aid on the situation but don't really solve the problem. So it's easy to sort-of, you know, muddle through without trying to take the next bigger step. Does that sound like it's familiar or am I just making something up? 

Hannah: No, you're definitely not making that up. And that, you know, that's, you know, essentially, you know, why a lot of these products exist in the first place is, band aids are band aids and that's, you know, what they're there for.

And folks might not also know that this, that there are solutions, right? Like, you know, we can be, you know, doing the work, but not know that it's there's bioinformatics, like, you know, so we can, you know, look at an electronic health record and think, “Oh, my goodness, there's got to be so many ways to manipulate this to make it work better for me as a physician.”

Well, that's informatics, but we can be doing the work and not know that there is a word for it or that there's a program for it or that it's even a full career for people. So, when, you know, you see these products in stores, you know, that that might be your only solution because that's what is presented to you.

You might not know that there are other options out there for you. So, you know, I think that it's really good that this podcast exists to let folks know that, you know, that the frontline worker that is the pad is not where the treatment necessarily needs to end, you know, the, the pad and the, the Depends are basically like the EMTs and that they can transport you to something that's going to get you potentially better, better results and more help.

Bruce Kassover: Yeah, that's exactly right. That sounds right. Also, when we talk about how, you know, you reach out to these people and you give them a voice that they can talk to and show them that they're not alone, and these are people who are already sort of on their journey. When we do want to talk to, to reach out to those people who haven't even started, haven't gotten that far yet, one thing I do want to do is give a little bit of a shameless plug to the National Association for Continence's website. It's NAFC.org. And when you go there, you'll see that we actually have message boards where people who are just on their journey, who are well along the way, who've found solutions, or healthcare workers and caregivers can all ask questions and share advice and share insights. And certainly if you're listening to this and you're new and you wish you had an ambassador or somebody who could help you understand your journey a little bit more, we absolutely welcome that you to go to the message boards and you know, ask your questions there and find a community.

But I guess you are the community for these people. And how well do they receive you? I mean, are they excited to hear from you? They're a little nervous? I mean, do they not believe that they're really going to find a solution? 

Hannah: You know, that's a great question. I've talked to folks who cry and thank me for my time and in talking to them. I have folks who are skeptical, forget that they made an ambassador appointment and think that I'm a telemarketer and then, you know, we both laugh about that and then, you know, continue on the conversation. But you know, I think that it's really well received and that for the most part, people are very grateful that this ambassadorship exists and that, you know, just me sharing my experience does give folks hope that, you know, there, there could be a good solution for them. 

Bruce Kassover: I love hearing that. That's great. So now, you know, the name of the podcast is Life Without Leaks. And what we do at the end of every podcast is we do like to ask our guests to share one little bit of advice, a hint, a tip, a strategy, a thought, a pearl of wisdom about how people who are listening can live a life without leaks. So I'm wondering if you might have one that you could share with us as well. 

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important to be a self advocate and to have the difficult conversations with your physician. I know that there's a lot of shame and embarrassment that can be associated with what you're going through, but that there are solutions out there.

So if you're able to have these conversations, then you might. Be able to have a life without leaks. So I think that, you know, having the strength to talk about what's important to you and what your goals are for your health and find a physician who will work with you is really is going to be the best thing for you.

Bruce Kassover: That sounds like capital advice. So thank you very much. And I hope that people take it to heart as well. And I want to thank you for giving the time and sharing your story and giving some inspiration and maybe some motivation to folks out there who really need it. So I genuinely want to thank you, and I can't tell you how much we appreciate you being so open and honest with us.

Hannah: Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Bruce Kassover: Life Without Leaks has been brought to you by the National Association for Continence. This podcast was supported by our sponsor partner, Medtronic, makers of InterStim systems for bladder and bowel control. To learn more about InterStim systems, visit controlleaks.com. Our music is “Rainbows” by Kevin MacLeod and can be found online at incompetech.com.